[poignant music playing]
[host] Imagine if we had the opportunity
to hear from a cultural icon after they've passed away.
A chance for them to shape their own legacy,
to be heard one last time in their own words.
Dr. Jane Goodall connected humanity to Mother Nature
in ways we had previously only imagined.
She was a scientist,
a conservationist,
and an educator.
[Jane] We're all interconnected,
and we depend on the natural resources of this planet,
and they're not infinite.
[host] Her bond with nature was instinctive
from the time she was a child.
Animals seemed to trust her,
and she credited them as her teachers.
At 26, she traveled to East Africa to study wild chimpanzees
and made a groundbreaking discovery that chimps could use and make tools,
something people thought only humans were capable of.
But Jane didn't just study chimps.
She befriended them,
assigning them names rather than numbers
and following their families for generations.
The work led her to become a UN Messenger of Peace
and a battle-tested leader in the war to save Mother Nature.
Whether she was speaking before CEOs or world leaders,
Jane's charm and calm demeanor reached hearts and changed minds,
including in the US,
where she helped end government testing on chimpanzees.
[chimpanzees chattering]
[host] In more than 70 countries,
Jane empowered generations of young people through her Roots & Shoots program
to carry on the fight for a sustainable future.
With her passing,
the world has lost a moral compass and a relentless force for good.
Before she died, Jane Goodall sat down for a deeply meaningful conversation,
knowing that what you're about to see would not air until after she passed away,
even if that meant locking away the footage for years.
These are Jane Goodall's Famous Last Words.
-Here, you wanna take my hand? -[Jane] How do we walk?
[host] We're just gonna walk straight. We'll hold hands.
[Jane] Whoopsie whoops. And then we walk around here.
-[host] You're very spry. -Oh, yes.
You're gonna sit in this chair right here.
-Yes. -Got some whiskey set up for you already.
-For my throat, for my voice. -Yes.
-They already poured some in there. -It got very overused during COVID.
You know, I was doing up to four Zooms a day.
[host] Wow. Do you like to have a drink of whiskey
before you start talking?
Would you wanna have that now, or you wanna wait?
[Jane] Um, yes.
Having a little sip of whiskey at the beginning of a talk
is sometimes really, really good.
[host] Please do.
-I am not an alcoholic. -[chuckles]
But I have said to my people,
if you give me more things to do per day,
and my voice gets tighter and tighter,
you may turn me into an alcoholic,
and then the world will blame you
for stopping Jane from giving out her message.
-Cheers. -Cheers to you.
I did wanna talk about him.
-[chuckles] Mr. H. -Mr. H.
Is he always with you?
Yes. He's 34 years old.
He was given to me by a man called Gary Haun,
which is why he's Mr. H.
Gary Haun thought he was giving me a stuffed chimpanzee
for my birthday 34 years ago.
It's not a chimpanzee.
And I took his hand, and I made him hold the tail.
I said, "Gary, chimps don't have tails."
So Gary went blind at 21 when he was in the US Marines.
But, you know, 34 years old is pretty jolly good.
He looks great.
And, of course, Mr. H. is far more than a toy.
He's a… he's a symbol of the indomitable spirit
because of who gave him to me.
-[host] Mm. -And he's very famous.
-[host] Very. -Yes.
Well, welcome, Jane,
welcome, Mr. H., to our set here,
which you can see is different than most other interview sets
in that there are no cameramen in here.
We have five cameras operated remotely.
[Jane] We seem to have a little train going around.
Yes, they can move, they… but they can't hear anything we say.
So we are gonna have a very personal, private conversation
without any worries about the consequences of what you have to say.
You can speak very honestly about yourself and the people in your life
and anybody who you have some things to say about, which could be, uh…
[chuckles] 'Cause I'm dead, so I won't have repercussions.
Exactly. This will not air until after you have died.
So anyone watching this is grieving you at the moment
and very excited to hear a little bit more from you, so…
There may be one or two people who say, "Hey, she's gone!"
I… I honestly think it's o… it's only one or two
because I… I think you are… you are
one of the most beloved people… in the world.
[Jane] And how that happened
is a true mystery to me.
[host] Well, I think other humans seeing what… what's possible,
seeing what a person can be, what we can be,
that we have someone committed to a mission of good
and relentlessly working towards that good is, uh, inspiring to us.
Well, I mean, I only do what I do
because… because people get inspired to do better themselves.
[host] Mm.
All right, so I wanna read, um, your bio,
and it… it's quite extensive for you,
so if you'll just allow me.
Dr. Valerie Jane Morris-Goodall.
You were born on April 3rd, 1934 in London, England.
Your mother, Margaret "Mavenwy"…
Myfanwe.
-[host] Myfanwe. -Welsh. Welsh.
[host] Welsh.
Your mother, Margaret Myfanwe…
-[chuckles] -Got it.
…was a writer who wrote under the name Vanne Morris-Goodall.
Your father, Mortimer Herbert Morris-Goodall,
was an engineer who became a race car driver for Aston Martin.
You have a younger sister, Judy,
who you share a birthday with four years apart.
You were married twice.
First to Baron Hugo van Lawick, a photographer and filmmaker
who captured your research in the wild for ten years.
You share a son, Hugo, but named Grub,
a master boat and home builder,
who lives in Tanzania with your grandkids, Angel, Merlin, and Nick.
Tanzania is also where you met your late husband, Derek Bryceson.
Together, you established the Gombe National Park,
the birthplace of your scientific discoveries.
You were married for five years before he passed away.
Your study of chimps in Tanzania
is the longest-running wildlife study in history
and the world's largest scientific database
on humans' closest DNA relative.
You are the woman who redefined man
by showing that chimpanzees can make and use tools
and have distinct personalities, minds, and emotions.
And when this is broadcast, all of your work… will be finished.
How does it feel to… hear all that?
It just reinforces my belief
that I was put on this planet to make this journey,
because things happened which took me…
Like, for example,
I wanted to go to Africa.
It started when I was ten years old
and I read Tarzan of the Apes.
Before that, it was animals, animals, animals,
but Tarzan of the Apes, I fell in love with Tarzan,
was mad when he married the wrong Jane.
-His Jane was a real wimp. -[chuckles]
And, uh, everybody laughed at me.
"How will you get to Africa? You don't have money."
My family had little money. "Africa's far away. It's dangerous."
Back then, we knew… It was called the Dark Continent.
We didn't know much about it.
"It's full of fierce wild animals," which, of course, was what I wanted.
"And anyway, you're just a girl."
Girls back then… didn't dream of anything like that.
But Mum said, "If you really want to do something like this,
you're going to have to work very hard,
take advantage of every opportunity,
and if you don't give up, I'm sure you'll find a way."
So that was my mother's wisdom.
My supportive, amazing mother,
whom I give credit… a lot of credit as to who I am.
She supported this love of animals,
so that when I was 18 months, I don't remember, but she told me
that I'd taken a whole lot of earthworms into my bed,
along with the earth, of course,
and instead of getting angry, she said, "Jane, you were looking so intently."
"I think you must have been wondering how they walk without legs."
And when I was four, I was given a job to help collect hen's eggs.
And the hen would go in, go into the box, lay her egg in the straw,
and I would open the lid, get out the egg, and put it in my basket.
So I apparently began asking everybody,
"But where is the hole? Where does the egg come out of the hen?"
I couldn't see a hole like that, and nobody answered me.
So what I remember vividly was a hen who was… she was brown,
and she went into one of these hen houses.
I crawled after her, went, and waited.
And my mother was about to call the police.
Nobody knew where I was, and I'd been gone four whole hours.
[host chuckles]
And yet when she sees this little girl, all excited,
instead of, "How dare you go and do something like that
without telling us? Don't you dare do it again,"
would have killed the excitement, she sat to listen to my story.
So I love that story, because isn't that the making of a little scientist?
Asking questions, not getting the right answer,
deciding to find out for yourself, making a mistake,
not giving up, and learning patience.
[host] Hm.
And a different kind of mother might have crushed that early scientific curiosity,
and I might not be talking to you now.
I was lucky.
I read you told your friends that you could speak with animals.
[chuckles] Yes, I knew I couldn't, though, but they believed me.
[host] In watching
and reading about your time when you first got to the jungle,
you were out alone in the jungle.
This is before you even found the chimps.
-All day. -Yep.
For days and days, for weeks and weeks, for months and months.
And yet there was no experience of boredom for you.
No, because in nature, there's always something to watch.
You know, there are insects,
and, you know, you can see such fun things with insects.
I remember once the dung beetles,
you know, they get into a pile of somebody's shit,
and they make a little ball, and they roll that ball,
and they… they dig a hole.
They drop the ball down, and they lay their eggs in it.
That's for the young ones to eat.
And so I was watching, and two came like this.
And this ball was being rolled by two,
one going backwards, and the other pushing forwards.
This was a lone one,
and the male from the male-female pair started to fight.
So the female just very quietly moved dung
from the… the lone male's ball onto her ball,
and went off with it. [chuckles]
And, you know, things like that, people don't notice.
And I'm shocked,
because nature is always filled with things to look at.
Another example, I was in the Denver airport,
sparrows can come in,
and there was a little drama going on.
There were two sparrows, and the female was, you know,
it was courtship,
so she was doing this fluttering, mouth open,
and down on the ground was a crumb that somebody dropped.
And clearly the male wanted to feed his lady love with the crumb.
And so he flew down, and three times, just as he was about to pick it up,
somebody comes by, looking at their cell phone,
they just walk by this drama,
and finally he was able to get it and feed the lady. [chuckles]
I mean, this was…
I mean, it took ten minutes, and it was entertaining.
-There's no need to be bored. -Right.
When people are watching this,
the world will really be in collective mourning for you.
I suppose so.
You only suppose so? You don't think so? I mean, people love you.
I know they come up and they say they love me.
The… the… the strange thing is, they don't actually know me.
There are two Janes.
There's this one,
just talking, and then there's the icon.
The people who don't know me love the icon.
But it does seem that most people who do know me also love me.
So why? I don't know.
People say, you know, "What is it about you?"
What do you think?
Well, I think people trust me.
Uh…
I think they like the values I've always shown that I have.
I don't know. I mean, this other Jane is a mystery to me.
-[host] The icon is a mystery to you? -Yeah.
Because, you know, I know who I am. I'm just me.
And yet… people in airports come up and start to cry.
"Oh my God!"
And I always say, "I'm not your God. I'm just Jane."
Do you… do you remember when you first realized that icon Jane existed?
I remember, with shock and horror, the first time something happened.
I was in Santa Fe, and this elderly couple came up.
And the woman… I mean, this is really weird.
This only happened to me ever once again.
She looked at me, and she said, "Can I touch you?"
I said, "Oh my… What is this?
And… [chuckles]
…so I said, "Well, we could shake hands."
That happened to me again two years ago.
But normally people, you know, want to take a selfie
or, uh, want me to sign something.
What do you think she wanted or needed by touching you?
-What do you think she was trying to…? -I had no idea. I was shocked.
And after that, I suddenly realized, "Well, somehow this has happened."
"And I think I have a mission in this life,
so I'll make use of that."
You're always on mission.
-You're always-- -I'm always on mission, yeah.
Even… even when I'm really tired. I mean, that's what I'm on this planet for.
I truly believe that.
And I think it's important, as people turn to you, to say,
"What's the fight? Where's the battle? Where should we look? What should we do?"
Identifying who the people who… who the battle is against,
I think… I think it's important.
Do you have people that you don't like?
Absolutely, there are people I don't like.
And I would like to put them on one of Musk's spaceships
and send them all off to the planet he's sure he's going to discover.
Would he be… would he be one of them?
-Oh, absolutely. He'd be the host. -[host chuckles]
And you can imagine who I'd put on that spaceship.
-Who? -Along with Musk would be Trump.
And some of Trump's real supporters. And then I would put Putin in there.
And I would put President Xi.
I'd certainly put Netanyahu in there and his far-right government.
Put them all on that spaceship and send them off.
These men seem like not the alpha… chimp.
They think they are, but it seems that their behavior is not, uh…
Well, we get, interestingly, two types of alpha.
One does it all by aggression.
And because they're strong and they fight, they don't last very long.
Others do it by using their brains,
like a young male will only challenge a higher-ranking one
if his friend, often his brother, is with him.
And… you know, they last much, much longer.
-Interesting. -Mm.
As a scientist who studies behaviors,
wh… how do you explain the behavior like that?
If people behave that way, how do you make sense of that?
Well… [clears throat]
in the '70s,
science of behavior became politicized.
And there was a huge debate about whether aggression in humans
was innate or learned.
Well, from my study of chimpanzees,
our closest relative,
you know, we share 98.7% of our DNA with them,
and the behavior is almost identical.
And so I saw them
behaving in… dark, aggressive, brutal ways,
even a kind of primitive war.
Therefore, I believe that aggression is innate.
-[host] Innate? -Innate.
And we're born with a tendency to become aggressive,
just as chimps are.
Chimps see a stranger from a neighboring community,
and they get all excited, and their hair stands out,
and they reach out and touch another,
and they've got these faces of anger and fear,
and it catches,
and the others catch that feeling that this one male has had,
and they all become aggressive.
So it's contagious.
And humans are susceptible to that as well?
Yeah, I think so. Some of these, um, demonstrations that turn aggressive,
it sweeps through them.
They all want to join in and become aggressive.
I'm not a political analyst or anything like that.
But in behavioral, for… for the chimps, why do they get caught up in it?
Well, they're protecting their territory or fighting for dominance.
And is that the same for humans? Probably sometimes, yes.
But I truly believe that most people are decent.
-You do? -Yes.
Ignorance you can reach. You say evil you can't reach.
-But you believe that you're out there. -Yes.
Part of your mission is to cure ignorance.
And, you know, as I say, my biggest hope
is raising this new generation of compassionate citizens,
Roots & Shoots.
But do we have time? I don't know.
It's a really grim time.
Is this… is this, in all the years you have been fighting this fight,
do you feel like it's the most dangerous time
or the darkest time?
Well, I suppose if I had been older than five years old
when World War II began,
I would say it's about like that.
But because all of Europe was defeated or capitulated,
and it looked as though Nazi Germany would take the world over.
But since then, yes, this is much the worst time.
When you look back now
on all these moments when you were… relentless
and, uh, shameless about winning the fight,
is it the mission?
Is it something in you that just doesn't ever wanna give up?
Never want to give up, and I'm obstinate, and I won't give up.
That doesn't mean you don't have moments of depression,
'cause you do.
But then you come out of it and say, "Okay, I'm not going to let them win."
[host] Mm.
-It's like Churchill in the war. -Mm.
When Britain was the last nation standing up to Nazi Germany.
Britain was not prepared for war because of Chamberlain,
who wanted to capitulate like France,
but we had Churchill and, you know, his famous speech,
"We'll fight them on the beaches
and we'll fight them in the streets and the cities."
And then he turned aside to a friend and was heard to say,
"We'll fight them with the ends of broken bottles
'cause that's all we've bloody well got."
And he roused the spirit of the British people.
I guess he was as obstinate as me. [chuckles]
Do you feel like Churchill in a war for your mission,
for… for… for the planet?
Does it feel like a war to you?
Well, it is a sort of war, isn't it?
I haven't thought of it as a war, but in a way it is.
We talk about a fight.
So I suppose it's a kind of a war.
It's saving Mother Nature.
[host] Right.
And you need… you need… you need a Churchill in that fight who says,
"We're never… we're never quitting, even when it's the darkest."
Yes, and give people hope.
One thing people say to me from all over, they…
It's been said to me again and again and again,
you know, "Whatever situation you're in," they say,
"you're calm."
"How can you stay so calm?"
And…
So I think it's because of all the months and months I spent in the rainforest,
and I keep that.
Right. We talked a little about the idea of boredom, but also the idea of luck.
Yes, luck.
I think a lot of people could look and say,
"Well, a friend happened to tell you about Dr. Leakey."
He was probably the world's most famous paleontologist at the time,
and he happened to have needed a secretary.
Yes, somebody said, as you said,
uh, "If you're interested in animals, you should meet Louis Leakey."
But when I met him,
he was head of the Natural History Museum in Nairobi.
He took me all around, asked me lots of questions.
I could answer most of them
'cause I'd read about every book on animals in Africa
that I could lay my hands on. There weren't many back then.
And guess what?
Just before I arrived, his secretary had left.
And he wanted a secretary, and there I was.
It was not a normal secretarial job.
I was in his office, which was huge
and filled with skulls and bones, and, you know,
sometimes people had brought in animals and so on.
And I rescued a little pygmy bush baby,
about this big, with big ears.
And for some odd reason, I called him Levi,
I don't know why, and he came with me to work.
And he liked… They sleep in the day,
so he would sleep in a gourd, which was right over Leakey's desk.
But if a visitor came in,
little Levi's head would peep out of the gourd.
He'd look down at the visitor.
And then he would…
And Leakey knew this was gonna happen. He'd jump onto the unsuspecting visitor.
But when a bush baby jumps, they want their hands to be able to grip.
So they'd pee on them.
[chuckles]
So, you know, imagine the fun.
And then the key thing was that Leakey let me go with him,
his wife, and another young, uh, girl
on a trip to Olduvai Gorge,
now a very famous site of early man.
But back then, no fossil… human fossils had been found.
Three months in the middle of nowhere.
Serengeti as nobody will ever see it again.
Animals everywhere.
And Gillian and I would work hard all day digging for fossils.
And then we were allowed out, uh, to have a walk.
And the animals were there.
So one evening, there was a young male lion,
fully grown, mane just starting on his shoulders.
He was standing looking, tail waving gently.
I think he was curious.
Gillian panicked. She wanted us to hide in the vegetation.
I said, "Gillian, the lion will know where we are."
"We won't have a clue where the lion is."
"We must climb up onto the plains from the gorge," not very far,
"so he sees that we're not a threat," which is what we did.
And I think it was that evening around the campfire
that Leakey decided that I was the person he'd been looking for to study chimps.
So it was a… a way that was part destiny, part luck,
part determination.
Do you believe in destiny?
I believe that we have
a path that we should take,
but that we have free will.
We don't have to make the choice.
And I believe, looking back in my life,
I've taken the right…
the right turn.
I mean, if… if I'm right that I was born with a mission,
then it was the voice of that, mm… spiritual entity
that put me on the planet.
[host] Do you believe in God?
I believe in a great spiritual power.
I have to believe in it because it's helped me so often.
And do you think that spiritual power has also protected you out in the wild?
[Jane] I'm sure it has.
I just feel it… it has to be.
You have a magic when it comes to nature.
Obviously, you have a magic that others don't have
that Leakey saw.
It wasn't just that you were a woman and he thought a woman would be better.
It wasn't just that you were good at being nonthreatening.
There's some other magic you have that the…
It is a magic.
And strange things… I do have strange…
Like, I was just talking to a group of people.
We were having a party, just with friends.
And one person said,
"I was somewhere where Jane stopped the rain,"
and they laughed.
And I said, "No, it's true."
What ha-- How did you do it?
Well, I just…
asked the rain to stop.
And it… Most times, it doesn't listen when we ask the rain--
No, I know, but it happened again in Malaysia,
and I was with this small, tiny group.
She was a sheikha, you know, the wife of a sheik, powerful lady.
And it was the monsoon season,
which starts like clockwork.
And, uh, somehow, I don't know, we got it a bit wrong.
And just before the end,
when two little boys were going to make a wee presentation of Roots & Shoots,
the first big drops fell.
And she said, "We better go inside."
And I said, "No, let's hold hands around the table
and ask the rain just to give us half an hour."
And it stopped.
You always had that kind of connection where you actually talk and it talks back?
Well, you know, it's only recently I've begun putting it all together
and saying that I don't know.
It doesn't happen that often.
Besides speaking chimp, actually speaking the language of chimp,
with animals, there is a connection
that's very real and pure and nonverbal with them.
-I think so. -And with nature in general.
It's what… You know, it's what kept you safe,
I imagine, out in the jungle all that time, for the most part.
Well, maybe, but I learned something interesting.
You know, when I first went, it was Tanganyika,
was a British protectorate.
And so the British authorities told Leakey,
"We're not taking responsibility for something as stupid
as sending a girl into the forest," but he never gave up.
So in the end, they said, "All right, but she can't come alone."
That's why Mum volunteered to come.
So we stepped onto the shore,
and we'd been told there was a headman,
and we'd been told to bring him a gift, so we gave it to him.
Very soon after that, Mum had this little clinic,
and the fishermen began queuing up.
She only had aspirins and Epsom salts
and saline drips and things like that.
But she spent time with people,
and she made some amazing cures,
so that word spread.
And so I learned much, much, much later,
two of our field staff, I was talking to them,
and they said,
"That guy, Idi Matata, the headman,
he was the most infamous witch doctor the area's ever known."
And so Idi told all the fishermen
they were to help me,
and they told… he told the animals not to hurt me.
-He told the animals? -Yes. That's what I learned years later.
So how do we know?
How do we know?
There's so much we have still to discover,
you know, and I know when I'm gone,
there'll be more and more discovered if we can save the planet in time.
[host] Mm-hmm.
Where… where are you now as people are watching this?
What's… what's next?
Well, you know, when you die,
there's either nothing, in which case nothing,
or there's something.
And from all the experiences I've read,
you know, the near-death experiences, the books I've read,
and my own personal experience
after my second husband, Derek, died,
I believe there is something.
What was that experience?
After he died, it was one night,
and Derek appeared,
and he was smiling, and he was telling me,
you know, everything was going to be fine,
and he was fine,
and then he kind of disappeared after that.
All I was left with was he was okay.
Wow.
And reincarnation kind of makes sense.
I mean, a lot of religions talk about an old soul.
An old soul has been back in different forms,
and, you know, they gradually, gradually acquire knowledge and wisdom.
I've… Many people have told me I'm an old soul.
Yeah, if… if… if… if we keep coming back,
reincarnating in order to… to evolve, I feel like you're done.
-I feel like this is it for you. -Well, I hope so.
[chuckling] I don't want to come back.
Do you think people come back as the dung beetle,
or they come back always as humans with other opportunities?
I… I personally think that we come back as humans.
[host] Mm.
Because, you know, we've evolved to a different kind of level.
And I don't know…
Well, maybe some humans should go back down there.
You've mentioned a couple on that rocket ship, I think.
[Jane] Maybe they come back.
Though those dung beetles seem very happy and productive.
Yes, I wouldn't want them to be dung beetles.
I think… [chuckling] I don't know what I'd want them to be.
Oh, yes, they could be the poor, wretched animals
who are used in laboratories to test medicines on.
Let them be those.
-[host] And learn. -And learn.
One thing I was very moved by
was that in Gombe, there were certain chimps
that you clearly had a closer relationship with.
You had David Greybeard,
who, you know, famously showed you that they can use tools.
-Yeah. -[host] You had Flo and her son Flint.
And when Flo died,
that Flint, her… her son…
-Yeah. -…died of grief, of a broken heart.
Yes. He stopped eating.
And, um, out in the tropics when an animal dies,
very, very quickly, flies lay their eggs.
-[host] Mm-hmm. -And they're white.
And so chimps are very used to dead animals
who don't move and with these white eggs.
And Flint, when Flo died,
he came down about five or six times,
took his mother's hand.
He wanted her to groom him.
So he took her dead hand.
And then I think it was the fifth time he came down,
a fly had laid eggs in her ear,
and there were these white eggs in her ear.
And he poked them, looked at his finger, ran away,
rubbed his finger on the ground like that, and never went near her again.
It was as though some… something clicked.
"She's not going to move again."
And after that, he climbed a tree
where I had watched them nest before she died,
just a few days before she died.
and he walked very slowly along the branch
to where their joint nest was.
And he just stood there,
and he looked at it for about a minute.
And then he turned slowly, walked away, climbed down,
curled up on the ground, and that was it.
Yeah, it was very sad.
[host] So when you die,
who are the people that you love the most who will be there to welcome you?
I have no idea.
I just don't know, but I just hope and pray
that some of the chimps, that my special chimps,
David Greybeard, um, Rusty,
my childhood dog, Rusty,
and some of the others, I… I hope they'll be there.
And, of course, I hope Mum.
And, um… Yeah.
What about, uh, Derek or Hugo?
-Or your husbands? -Well…
Wouldn't matter so much.
-[host] How come? -I don't know.
[host] Did you feel that kind of closeness
you felt with the chimps or… with Hugo or Derek,
the men you were married to, or your mom, that you felt, uh…?
Uh, Mum was… different,
and obviously it was a different kind of, you know, love.
These things are different. There's lots of kinds of love.
And the love that I had for Derek and for Hugo and for Mum
were all different from the love I had with… with David Greybeard and Rusty.
I… I think it's interesting that, um,
like, when it comes… when it came to romance in your life,
was it something that you felt deeply?
I find it interesting that you're saying that you don't have the same… the same
thoughts of them greeting you, that… that… the ones who you love the most.
[sighs]
Because…
Let me talk about how I was,
and I think about how I was,
that…
It's difficult to explain, but… in some ways,
the two marriages I made were made…
Like, Hugo helped the course I'm on by his film.
Derek helped the course I'm on
because four of my students were kidnapped in 1974.
Gombe was closed, and, but for Derek, it would have ended.
And… had it been otherwise,
I know I shouldn't have married either of them,
because both of them were insanely jealous.
Even if I had a girlfriend,
insanely jealous.
Hugo was
more interested in his career than his son,
in some ways, although he loved him.
Um,
Derek was…
Neither of them could bear the fact
that I was, you know, successful in my career,
even though Derek was a minister and everything.
And so you got… you got married because it was practical?
No, I was in love at the time.
-[host] You were in love? -Yes.
But looking back on it, I wasn't enough in love.
Right. [chuckles]
[Jane] And looking back on it,
it looks as though I married them for a practical reason.
I didn't at the time.
But… but I'm looking back on how I was,
not as I am.
Right. Was there ever a man who you didn't end up marrying
who you did feel that kind of love, that… somebody that… that got away?
There was one married man, yes.
-[host] Who was that? -No.
No. I mean, you're… now's the time if you're going to.
Now's the time I'm dead,
but probably this man has relatives, no.
If we don't talk about him specifically,
but talk about what it was you felt for him…
Well, we both have the same interests, the same passion for animals.
Uh…
He had a wife that, you know,
he wasn't that… passionate about anymore.
Uh, I was between marriages at that time.
And there was no chance of him leaving her and you guys being together?
No.
[host] Was that a heartbreak?
It was sad at the time.
Yeah.
Do you, um,
Do you have any regrets about… looking back at your life?
Uh, well, I would… for my son's sake,
I would like the first marriage to have worked.
But there were so many ways in which it… it really didn't.
[host] Hm. Did he take the divorce hard? Did Grub take the divorce hard?
I think he did. Yeah.
But, um…
How did that… how did that show up? How did he… How did you know?
Well, because he became rather silent.
And… But it wasn't a real bad upset.
'Cause he didn't have that good a time with his father.
[host] Right.
He just wasn't… maybe somebody who was made to be
a very involved father.
[Jane] I think something like that.
I mean, there was one… It was Grub's first known Christmas.
He was two.
And we were on the Serengeti,
uh, or Ngorongoro.
And, uh, the wildebeest, you know,
they… they migrate, and a certain time, they swim across a river.
-And it's very dramatic to film. -Mm.
And so a film team, I think it was Japanese,
came and asked Hugo to show them where this would happen.
Hugo had filmed it already.
And so he told them.
And it was Christmas Day.
We found a little…
It wasn't a proper Christmas tree, but Grub was going,
"Daddy's coming, and we're going to have presents at lunchtime."
And the team, afterwards they said,
"We kept telling your husband, 'We don't need you now.'"
"'You've shown us where this will happen.'"
"'It's Christmas. You need to go back to your family.'"
He never… He stayed out all day.
That… I think that was the thing that cinched it for me.
-You were done. -It was horrible.
It was like, you know, this little boy was so excited.
[inhales sharply]
Yeah. Maybe he was three, even, I can't remember.
Of course, I've never told Grub that,
so maybe he's listening now.
So sorry, Grub.
Do you have any guilt about how you raised him?
No, because I wasn't away from him one day
until he was after three, one night.
So as he is now, the Flint in the situation,
sitting, watching this, grieving you, what would you say to him?
Oh, what would I say to… to him?
We have a relationship that's closer now
than it has been for some time.
And I think he resented the fact that…
I mean, he's… he's remembering that I left him for the chimps,
which isn't true.
-[host] Hm. -He now knows that.
That's why we've got closer again.
So,
I think all I say to him is,
Grub, I did my best for you,
and, I think, somehow made a pretty good job of it
because I'm proud of you.
I think that's something that a son would wanna hear
from their mother more than anything, that… that… I mean, he knows you love him,
but that you're proud of him.
Yeah, I've told him.
I'm proud of my grandchildren too.
Do you have any messages for them from… from the beyond?
I know you'll be sorry I'm not here,
but, uh, you'll be carrying on the same kind of effort
that I made to make the world a better place.
-And you know my spirit's with you. -[host] Mm.
And I'll know what you're doing.
[host] This is a moment right now, as people are watching this,
where maybe the biggest story in the world is that you've passed away.
I think it'll be a global story. I think there'll be global mourning.
I think a lot of people will be talking about who you were.
So who would you say you were?
I would say I was somebody sent to this world
to try to give people hope in dark times,
because without hope, we fall into apathy and do nothing.
And in the dark times that we are living in now,
if people don't have hope, we're doomed.
And how can we bring little children into this dark world we've created
and let them be surrounded by people who've given up?
[host] Mm.
So even… even if this is the end of humanity as we know it,
let's fight to the very end.
Let's let the children know, you know, that there is hope if they get together.
And even if it becomes impossible for anybody,
it's better to go on fighting to the end than just to give up and say, "Okay."
[host] And if I asked… ten-year-old Jane,
"Who are you?"
What would she say?
I would say I'm just an ordinary little girl,
rather shy, um, but also quite obstinate,
and that I want to go to Africa, and I want to live with animals.
I feel like there's a difference between the Jane answer and the icon Jane answer.
The first one was the icon Jane answer, and the second was the Jane answer.
That's right.
It seems like your understanding of yourself was pretty clear at ten.
Yeah, I knew what I wanted to do.
-[host] And you knew who you were. -I knew who I was.
Is it hard to think about leaving the fight?
Well, I've fought for so long.
I think I've probably been accomplishing the reason I was put on this planet.
And there comes a time when I'm really ready
to hand over to others that have picked up the same spirit.
Is there a certain feeling of relief that you'll be able to put that down?
Sometimes, I think, "Oh goodness." [chuckles] "I really don't want to go on."
And it's getting harder,
because the world is getting darker.
And it's, um…
You know, it's not just in the US,
but this swing to the far right,
which is harming the environment so terribly.
We're in the midst of the sixth great extinction.
-[host] Mm-hmm. -We've got climate change.
And, you know, everywhere I go, things are different.
Yeah, and I think if anybody reads about those other five extinction events,
you don't wanna be part of those.
You don't wanna be around for when those happen.
It's not… it's not pleasant for anyone.
It would be horrible, and that's why action must be now.
I have no doubt that we have the tools to make the change,
but do we have the will to make the change?
And it seems with some of the top politicians
and corrupt corporations, there is no such will.
The reason why you claim
that you were able to connect with the chimps
was that you were not threatening to them.
[Jane] Mm.
And then what I've read is you used that same technique
to… to be an activist.
-Yeah. -[host] Is that you would use that.
Yes, because… because, um, I… I just don't think being aggressive
ever… ever works.
You know, if you meet somebody who disagrees,
first of all, listen to them, because maybe they've got something that…
well, got an idea that you hadn't thought about.
And then, if you still think you're on a better track than they are,
how you've got to reach the heart.
It's no good fighting with the head, 'cause they're not going to listen,
especially a big, powerful man, with me.
And… So then, fortunately, as I've lived longer,
I've got more stories,
'cause to reach the heart, you can usually do it with a story.
Mm-hmm.
I do quite a lot of talks to CEOs of big corporations.
And this was our CEO in Singapore.
He came up to me afterwards, and he said,
"What tipped the balance for me was my little girl, eight years old."
"She came home from school one day,
and she said, 'Daddy,
they tell me that what you're doing is hurting the planet.'"
"'That's not true, is it, Daddy? 'Cause it's my planet.'"
That reached the heart.
And so when I tell that story, that reaches other hearts.
[host] Mm-hmm. Right.
And, you know, living through World War II,
when everything was rationed, you learned not to take things for granted.
[host] Mm-hmm.
So our kids today take things for granted, but you can't blame them.
-[host] Yes. -They expect water to come from a tap.
They expect a light to come on when you turn a switch.
They expect to have food.
It's not their fault that they take it for granted.
I saw that you… you… you reuse your coffee grinds twice, yeah?
[Jane] Yes. Not always.
If I go to a hotel, uh, you know, every bin,
every paper… waste paper thing,
it's got a plastic in.
Well, that means for one day,
maybe four plastic bags are wasted.
So I take it.
There's usually some paper carton of something
or a used something,
and I put all the waste in that.
I don't use those bags.
And is that… It is… Is it… is it big mission, little actions?
-Is that kind of the idea? -Yes. Yes.
Like, if millions of people do things like that,
it makes big change.
That's the main message of Roots & Shoots.
[host] Yeah.
All right, so, we've sort of come to the end of the interview.
You are magic,
and this conversation has been magic for me.
-I want to thank you. -Ah, it's been interesting for me too.
-I'm really glad. -Yeah.
I wanna just read a little something here, uh, as a thank you to you.
"There's no question you are the 'mother' in Mother Nature."
"You've redefined how we view our relationship with animals,
the environment, and each other."
"In terms of your impact in the scientific world,
you stand among the greatest of all time."
"The only hope for our planet's survival
lies in the countless individuals you've inspired to make a difference."
"You spent almost a half century traveling the world,
imparting wisdom and hope and guidance to millions of people."
And now I'm gonna step out,
so you can use this opportunity to do it one last time.
Yes.
[host] Everybody's gonna wanna know what you wanna leave us with.
So the death, okay.
Don't be like Macbeth.
"Now is a very witching time of night
when churchyards yawn and hell itself
breathes forth contagion to the night."
"Now I could drink hot blood
and do such bitter deeds
as day would quake to look on."
[host chuckling] I think
if Jane Goodall were to have those be her final words to the world,
that would be iconic.
[chuckles] I think people wouldn't believe it.
Hopefully, some people still read Shakespeare.
Yes, I think so.
If they haven't, they'll be inspired to after hearing that.
[both chuckle]
And before you step out, shall we have a toast?
I would never turn down the opportunity to have a drink with Jane Goodall,
because I feel like that would be a sin that would follow me the rest of my life.
So, yes, even though everyone forgive me
for the face I'm about to make as I drink this.
-But… -You don't need to drink it.
-I want to with you so much. -You can pretend.
No, I can't pretend.
You know, after my mother died,
and six… six months, uh, after her sister died,
and my sister and me were sitting talking,
and I started imagining.
I said, "Oh, can't you see this beautiful white cloud up there?"
"And Mum's up there."
"And, uh, if there's any heavenly spirit,
she's got it."
"So let's drink a toast."
My sister said, "Oh, and if our father is up there,
you know, he'll be zooming around in his Aston Martin
and trying to get Mum for a ride,"
because when he was 80,
he used to sneak away from his second wife and call Mum every Sunday.
[chuckling] Oh wow.
-So, anyway… -I didn't know that. Wow.
-We can drink to the cloud contingent. -We'll drink to the cloud contingent.
Anybody dead that you've loved is up there too.
-I hope they're enjoying it. -Drink to the cloud contingent.
-And the health of the planet. -Yes.
And our children and grandchildren. Drink to the future.
[Jane chuckling]
Mm, I grin.
[host chuckles]
What a delight. So thank you. I leave you to it.
Thank you, Jane.
[footsteps fading]
In the place where I am now,
I look back over my life.
I look back at the world I've left behind.
What message do I want to leave?
I want to make sure that you all understand
that each and every one of you has a role to play.
You may not know it.
You may not find it.
But your life matters,
and you are here for a reason.
And I just hope that that reason will become apparent
as you live through your life.
I want you to know
that whether or not you find that role that you're supposed to play,
your life does matter.
And that every single day you live,
you make a difference in the world,
and you get to choose the difference that you make.
I want you to understand that we are part of the natural world.
And even today, where the planet is dark,
there still is hope.
Don't lose hope.
If you lose hope, you become apathetic and do nothing.
And if you want to save what is still beautiful in this world,
if you want to save the planet for the future generations,
your grandchildren, their grandchildren,
then think about the actions you take each day.
Because multiplied a million, a billion times,
even small actions will make for great change.
I want to…
I… I just hope that you understand
that this life on planet Earth isn't the end.
I believe,
and now I know,
that there is life beyond death,
that consciousness survives.
I can't tell you from where I am secrets that are not mine to share.
I can't tell you what you will find when you leave planet Earth.
But I want you to know that your life on planet Earth
will make some difference
in the kind of life that you find after you die.
Above all, I want you to think about the fact
that we are part… when we're on planet Earth,
we are part
of Mother Nature.
We depend on Mother Nature for clean air,
for water, for food, for clothing, for everything.
And as we destroy one ecosystem after another,
as we create worse climate change,
worse loss of diversity,
we have to do everything in our power
to make the world a better place
for the children alive today and for those that will follow.
You have it in your power to make a difference.
Don't give up.
There is a future for you.
Do your best while you're still on this beautiful planet Earth
that I look down upon from where I am now.
God bless you all.
[solemn instrumental music playing]
[solemn instrumental music continues]
[music fades out] al music continues]